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General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.

Autopapdude
 
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Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby Autopapdude on Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:40 pm

I have decided to stay out of the fray in/re DME providers. It is clear that some folks have had positive experiences with them, and some have had very negative ones. The only thing the "tit for tat" arguments accomplish is acrimony, and nobody needs that. We are all here to be supportive of one another in dealing with OSA (ostensibly), so there is no reason to battle over opinions regarding the medical field. It will not change anybody's mind, and as such, it is like arguing politics--like that is going to be productive in the current climate of distrust in government in general? So, I am staying out of it, and will continue to discuss topics pertinent to Apnea, and treatment of same. I have had a fair degree of success with my compliance over the years, and am happy to share that. Anyone who chooses to battle about the other issues, so be it---it's their right to do so. I do feel that an informed patient (that is, one with software from a fully data capable machine) can make better decisions in/re his or her treatment. How they choose to do so is their business, and I will respect their right to do so.

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Sleepy Taz
 
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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby Sleepy Taz on Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:51 pm

Autopapdude,

You and I have both been through the trials and tribulations of early Cpap development and have seen the good and the bad from a relatively new field on medicine. I try to channel my anger towards those who deserve it and hope that each new professional that I meet is better than those that preceded them. We as long time users can use our powers for good and maybe along the way help to change the archaic attitudes and beliefs of some of those professionals. I am glad to see that you are going to be less combative, not because you are wrong, but because that is the wrong way to pass your knowledge to others. :wink:
"I can't do anything about the past. I have no idea what will happen tomorrow. What matters is the present. And, just in case tomorrow should never come, I'm going to use the present as constructively as I can."

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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby Guest on Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:09 pm

Autocpapdude,

I saw you make a statement in another thread that interested me, but will ask the question here so I don't hijack the other thread. You made this statement about the Intellipap "love its algorithm". We do not care Devilbiss machines and as such I don't have a sales rep to reference, I have researched here and on the internet but came up with nothing. Would you be willing to explain how the algorithm works on the Intellipap Auto?

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rested gal
 
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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby rested gal on Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:17 pm

akcpapguy, you might want to also ask ozij about her experience with the DeVilbiss auto and its software. I don't think the algorithm suited her, so you'd hear at least two different personal experiences with that machine.
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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby wearysoul on Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:32 pm

I have read some of the discussion about DMEs but not all of it. I agree that arguing about it doesn't necessarily help anyone maximize their therapy. However, I believe there can be some value in telling one's "war story"--whether it's about a DME, a doctor, or even a family member who isn't supportive. (Don't we all want someone to hear our story when we've been wronged?) It's a way for people in this community to verbalize--to get things off their chests in front of people who can relate. If we tell our war stories to our everyday friends, most of them aren't interested, or don't get it. Mine don't, at least. So I think that if someone wants to tell a DME war story without arguing about who's right and who's wrong, that can be a good thing. No harm done.

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potholerepairman
 
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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby potholerepairman on Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:52 pm

The dme stories helped me so much before ever meeting one that I found one that fits my needs very well so far.I called about 15 in my area to get one that only sold machines so renting was not an issue with my insurance(UHC will go with what ever the dme does on my plan).Being educated is the best for sure watching anyone get taken is aggravating except in a game of "three card monty".If not for the stories of dme's good and bad on this site I would have been taken for a ride for sure. ps- still spent more $$ at cpap.com than the dme but I got a lot more too.

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Last edited by potholerepairman on Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby Guest on Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:58 pm

Thanks RG i will.

Autopapdude
 
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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby Autopapdude on Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:21 pm

Oh, I agree with Rested. Some people might not like the way it approaches therapy, especially if they are used to "exhalation relief" algorithms. Basically, the Intellipap responds to any event, Apnea or Hypopnea. It makes no distinction, but raises pressure gradually, until the event is resolved. Also, it tends to "sense" your breathing pattern, and breathe with you. There is no true, "A-flex, or C-flex" so as to provide exhale relief. However, it does respond to your breathing rhythm, and I find it very comfortable. However, it is a quite different feel from A-flex. I had an M series, and hated it, as I found that none of the relief settings made me feel as if the machine were in rhythm with me. I found the "M" very twitchy, as opposed to the Intellipap's smoothness at resolving events. So, it is a very individual situation. The most important thing for me is the Intellipap's quick response to events, and its ability to deal with "pressure spikes" due to "one time--rogue apneas." Those are the anomalies that we get when we've eaten too much, had some alcohol, or end up sleeping on the back, where our pressure goes up out of its normal titrated range.

Autopapdude
 
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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby Autopapdude on Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:53 pm

I have read some of the discussion about DMEs but not all of it. I agree that arguing about it doesn't necessarily help anyone maximize their therapy. However, I believe there can be some value in telling one's "war story"--whether it's about a DME, a doctor, or even a family member who isn't supportive. (Don't we all want someone to hear our story when we've been wronged?) It's a way for people in this community to verbalize--to get things off their chests in front of people who can relate. If we tell our war stories to our everyday friends, most of them aren't interested, or don't get it. Mine don't, at least. So I think that if someone wants to tell a DME war story without arguing about who's right and who's wrong, that can be a good thing. No harm done.


When I did that, I got attacked. It was like being back in college, or grad school, where everybody was trying to be right at each other's expense. That is why I choose not to engage in it. I posted something that was a "personal recollection" of my 11 years as a papper, and it became a contest that was extremely unpleasant. So, for me, the way I want to approach it is in consensus building. It hasn't changed my mind about things---I don't particularly like "brick and mortar" DME providers, and cpap.com has been a wonderful resource. However, it was not productive to be in a "flame war."

I think the old Latin phrase covers it: "Non urinatum in Tempestatum." :D :D :D

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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby BlackSpinner on Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:16 pm

I posted something that was a "personal recollection" of my 11 years as a papper, and it became a contest that was extremely unpleasant. So, for me, the way I want to approach it is in consensus building.


I hate consensus approach - it has every one compromising and doesn't validate other peoples opinions and it usually goes with the lowest common denominator of understanding.

There are a lot of divas on this board and the reason they are divas is because they has stood the test of time and fire and sing loudest and best. I have never yet heard a good opera based on consensus (maybe a barber shop quartet?).

People have strong emotions about their therapy - most of us have been through the wars. The result of any involuntary life style change is grieving and anger, not validating that is to invalidate the people expressing their emotions. This board is one of the few which allow people to do that. If that bothers you than I suggest you try the Yahoo boards -( they are so heavily moderated that it takes 48 hours to get a post through) because you are responsible for your emotional reactions - not us. You are the one who allows your emotional buttons to be pushed.

So no I am not interested in consensus - I march to my own drummer and if you want to follow then fine but I refuse to compromise.

Autopapdude
 
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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby Autopapdude on Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:20 pm

Cool, if that works for you. I like my blood pressure lower. :D There are lots of divas everywhere, and I'd rather listen to pleasant music, frankly. Give me Mozart and no drama anytime.

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jnk
 
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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby jnk on Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:21 pm

Guest wrote:Would you be willing to explain how the algorithm works on the Intellipap Auto?


According to the DeVilbiss dudes, as quoted at http://www.sleepreviewmag.com/issues/articles/2009-09_02.asp :

. . . The DeVilbiss IntelliPAP® AutoAdjust® is a flow-based autotitrator that senses and categorizes events as either responding and nonresponding events (ie, potential central events). The AutoAdjust will increase pressure to detected responding events and will maintain pressure to nonresponding events, because a pressure response may complicate the event. Once breathing stabilizes, the AutoAdjust will reduce the pressure gradually to avoid arousals.

. . . The responding events are snoring, obstructive apneas, and hypopneas. The algorithm analyzes flow patterns the same way a sleep technician would visually identify respiratory events during a sleep study. Snoring is defined as an interruption of the flow signal on inspiratory waveform. Obstructive apneas are defined by a major decrease in the amplitude of the total respiratory waveform, and hypopneas are defined by a partial reduction of the respiratory waveform. A unique feature of the DeVilbiss AutoAdjust algorithm is the ability to change the sensitivity of the algorithm by changing definitions of respiratory events, almost creating a customized algorithm.

. . . As the cycle of sleep apnea begins, a precursor to obstructive apneas and hypopneas is snoring. The DeVilbiss AutoAdjust algorithm senses snoring and begins to increase the pressure prior to obstructive apneas and hypopneas in an attempt to prevent these events from occurring. The patient may still have apneas and hypopneas, especially during REM or while in a supine position during the night. There is a need to respond to apneas and hypopneas as they occur during a patient's sleep cycle to keep the airway patent. Dynamic changes in pressure are able to keep the airway open as the patient needs change.


For the record, though, I personally would take ozij's experienced word over all the above marketing mumbo-jumbo.
Last edited by jnk on Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BlackSpinner
 
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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby BlackSpinner on Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:23 pm

Autopapdude wrote:. Give me Mozart and no drama anytime.


You obviously have never listened to his operas - Mozart was one of the biggest divas himself.

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jnk
 
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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby jnk on Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:27 pm

Personally, I don't mind consensus. But then again, I don't mind a flame war now and then either. Frankly, I have learned from all approaches. The general idea of a board like this one, I think, is to take whatever approach you want as long as it is not unduly disruptive or dangerously misleading.

People like to read a variety of experiences and approaches when they ask questions here. And if an argument breaks out during the replies, that tells the poster of the question something too.

This stuff matters, but it can remain fun and welcoming. I feel welcome here with my opinions, and I really appreciate that from all you longtime posters.

All I ask is that people respect my right to have stupid opinions. :)

Is stating a refusal to join in any further arguments not just a fancy way to try to start an argument? (Hey! Wait a minute! I think we've been duped!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: )

jeff (aspiring male diva, or would that be a Devo?)
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Re: Not getting into fights over DME providers

Postby Guest on Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:01 pm

Thanks Autocpapdude and jnk,

I have read that article, however it doesn't provide any details about how the algorithm actually works. I'm looking for items like, how high does the pressure jump when it detects an apnea, how long does it monitor after raising the pressure before it starts to lower again, does it react differently to apneas/hypopneas (I prefer flow reductions) versus snoring, etc. This info about Respironics and Resmed is readily available, we just don't know much about the Intellipap.

I was hoping that Autocpapdude had some of these details (no disrespect mean't Autocpapdude) when he commented about loving the algorithm.

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